Make:cast – Makerspaces in Schools with Sarah H. Chung

Sarah H. Chung is a maker educator who has worked on the development of a 20,000 foot makerspace for Center City public charter schools in Washington, DC. She’s had several stops on her journey as a maker educator, working in formal and informal learning settings. In DC, she found herself leading the effort to build a community makerspace that would be shared by five public charter schools.

One of the challenges she faced was “how can I show people what a makerspace is when the one that we’re building is not built yet.”

You can view our conversation on YouTube or listen to it as a podcast.

Transcript

The following is an edited transcript of our conversation.

In this episode, Sarah shares her journey into Maker education, and she discusses her experience setting up a new 20,000 square foot makerspace for the charter school network. She emphasized the importance of experiential learning and community building and the benefits of fostering creativity and practical skills.

Sarah, welcome.

Sarah: Thanks for having me.

Dale Dougherty: Nice to talk you. I’d like you to just give us an idea of your background. How did you get into sort of maker education? 

Sarah: Yes. Just as person, first 

and foremost, someone who has a lot of different interests and hobbies. I love to read. I love making stuff. Love cooking. I make jewelry, I [00:01:00] sew. So all of those things have have led me down a natural path to becoming a maker educator.

But yeah, in 2015 I was hired at the Lighthouse Charter Schools in East Oakland, and I was hired to teach computer science slash making. So yeah, that kind of lent itself to not just teaching programming, through the screen but being more creative about the approach to computer science. And we ended up using Hummingbird Robotics microcontrollers and teaching kids how to design and build interactive robots using cardboard and different tools, and then programming the interaction programming different sensors and lights and motors using scratch. It’s MIT scratch. 

Dale Dougherty: If you don’t mind me asking, did you have a background in computer science? 

Sarah: No, actually I did not have any prior experience with computer science or coding myself. To be [00:02:00] honest, the first iteration of it was really messy. I didn’t have a classroom, so I was like a mobile pop-up teacher. So I went into the science room and had to set everything up and it was like very chaotic, just like a lot of firsts. And I told the middle schoolers, point blank that hey, no one has done this in your grade so far. We’re gonna try this and we’re gonna learn together and help each other because that’s also, the ethos of a makerspace is like collaborative learning and peer-to-peer learning. I was very transparent with them.

Dale Dougherty: Wish more would believe that’s a legitimate way to learn with your students as you’re doing it. Especially as we get into things like AI and stuff is like just have to start exploring and discover what’s there and figure out what you can do with it. So how did you end up on the East Coast? 

Sarah: Sure. So yeah, during COVID my partner and I moved to Scandinavia. He got [00:03:00] hired at a game studio that was based in Denmark and actually tried to start a makerspace there to support connections amongst all the international people living in Malmo, Sweden.

However, yeah, things didn’t really work out there. When we decided to make our way back to the United States, I thought that probably there was more opportunity on the East Coast for someone like me who was trying to get back into the arts and maker education. And I felt like the maker movement was making its way over here and that maybe I could be of more use and help bring some of those ideas from the west coast over here to the East coast.

Dale Dougherty: Explain this, yeah. Job is a manager of Maker learning at Center City Charter Schools. So give us the context of the Charter School Network. 

Sarah: So yeah. Center City is a network of six charter schools across Washington DC. They’re all title I schools and all campuses are [00:04:00] within. Historic old Catholic school buildings.

So they’re very beautiful and very historic. But they’re, pretty austere spaces. Not a lot of natural light very kind of institutional feeling. In some ways, but also very cozy. So that was one thing that really struck me about the community is that there was a lot of retention amongst staff, like people that have been here for over a decade. Lots of family, community, tightly knit community. So it felt like a very good place. 

Dale Dougherty: So when you started, was there a makerspace?

Sarah: Actually, no, there wasn’t. Yeah, when I interviewed for position and learned that this was a construction project that the space was built and it was planned to be a 20,000 square foot space to serve six schools. So I thought, wow, what an amazing opportunity that is to help build something that is starting from the very beginning.

Dale Dougherty: Did you find there were different [00:05:00] perceptions of what a makerspace would be, and you had to converge some of those perceptions, but also change some of them? 

Sarah: Yeah. It was a lot of, trying to figure out how can I show people what a makerspace is when the one that we’re building is not built yet. And so the first thing I did was research around where can we go, and visit. Like I could talk all day long about but to actually see a space that’s equipped and actually, like what kinds equipment are there? So I took a few of the leadership team and arranged a tour of open works in Baltimore, which is more of like a kind of adult community space. They have youth programs, but it’s a very cool, very well equipped makerspace and just doing a lot of amazing things for the city of Baltimore. So we went there and got to just tour everything from like welding studios to the quilt making machine, to all [00:06:00] the different kinds of 3D printers. And that really started to solidify for people like what we were setting out to do.

However, I will say that my team, which was basically me and one other person, like the director of the operations at the Makerspace, Patrice Jones, it was very much on us to get this project off the ground. And so we started collaborating with the construction company, the architects, project manager to just really inform them like, this is what we’re planning on doing here, and we co-developed what the six different labs would be. 

Dale Dougherty: One of the common issues that we hear is a teacher might say, or administrator we don’t have time for it. We’re so busy and unless this fits into the curriculum exactly. There’s just, this is too hard to do.

Sarah: Yeah, it has [00:07:00] actually been quite struggle to even though we have this gorgeous, 20,000 square foot space and it is designed for these six schools. It has been hard to carve out time from the day to really get kids in there using it. So we had to start, small and just basically set up a rotating schedule so that every student comes there for three sessions, a total of six hours through the school year. So that’s the start. And even with that, I think a lot of principals, right? They’re trying to figure out how to adjust to the schedule.

Yeah. So it has been a challenge to like justify, even though this makerspace is part of the center city network now. So we’re just really trying to highlight, what are the benefits, show people like this is not just [00:08:00] fun and games, right? The kids having fun, enjoying themselves. It may like oh, they’re off task, or there’s not classroom management happening. But actually the kids are moving around. They’re being, they’re learning. How to be comfortable with agency and choice in this space. 

Dale Dougherty: This is the real difference to me is a school is creating experiences versus a school that’s disseminating content. That’s not been an expectation so much in traditional schools. Yes. I know what I’m supposed to cover. I have my ways of covering it, and the kids either get it or they don’t.

Sarah: Yeah.

Dale Dougherty: Informal learning was always more oriented around experiential learning especially the kinds of learning that kids enjoy. And want to do themselves without a lot of external motivation, meaning grades rewards or things like that. It’s just fun.

Sarah: Yeah. And, I think that’s really what [00:09:00] draws me to teaching in informal spaces because when I was teaching Lighthouse, I taught computer science making class during the school day. Was an elective. I had to give grades. And then at the end of the school day, I transitioned into a maker educator after school, part of the extended learning program. And it was mixed ages. You had a few choices of things could do. It was pretty free open studio, like clubhouse style and just the environment and the feeling in that space was just more of a community atmosphere and the peer-to-peer learning was not forced. It just happened. 

Dale Dougherty: Even going back to your Lighthouse Charter is like people who if you force people to do it, you’re just like regular school, right? But people have some motivation to come in and do it, and then they succeed at it, and that spreads, that that really worked well. [00:10:00] Or for my kids, or for me.

Sarah: Not having a lot of forced outcomes. I think, for adults it’s the same. Like we are naturally curious as humans and we want to give ourselves permission when we’re interested in something and that the people around us and the environment supports us in doing that.

It’s hard ’cause in school we learn. Like are not allowed to do that. Or, you have to stay track, stay on task complete the assignment. And so I think it’s just something that like even all the teachers and the adults, they want that too for themselves. And I know I operate much more productively in any role when I’m given some autonomy and some agency.

It’s just that sort of human freedom, right? We thrive when we have freedom and when we’re like somewhat oppressed, right? And told you can only do this or you only have the option of doing [00:11:00] this, or you must achieve this particular set task. Like we shrink, that’s natural.

Dale Dougherty: That’s where I get frustrated that the systems we’ve designed really are their goals much different than you might expect to be so kids don’t like school. Well, it’s for a reason..

Sarah: I think that’s what’s interesting about being back in a school environment, and interwoven with my experiences working in arts communities and informal learning spaces. So yeah, last summer or this past summer, our program was kids worked in teams to develop brands and brand identities as a group. And this was just very cool to see how they collaborated with the motivation of shared thing they came up with together. And working towards that, they learned all kinds of skills related to [00:12:00] technology, to science, brand storytelling, culture, context, pop culture, how do you tell a story, visual representation, all these things.

I just remember one student in particular, he was one of our older students, 16 years old. He just seemed like he had a lot on his mind and maybe stressors outside of the day that, that were just brought into the space with him. And when I asked him to draw a sketch a logo for their clothing brand company, he was like, “oh, I used to draw in middle school, but I don’t draw anymore.” So that made me really like sad that a 16-year-old would think that was irrelevant for someone who was growing up and becoming more adult like. But after six weeks working with him and his group and they designed this very cool clothing brand, he like laser etched, leather and denim and added it to like the hoodies and things that they designed. I think it was like the experience of just making friends and [00:13:00] doing something creative, as the background of their relationship was, it was just really powerful and, he was smiling at the end of the six weeks. All of them, even us, felt like we really just shared a really, meaningful experience.

Dale Dougherty: What you bring up a lot is really changing the motivation of students to let them make decisions and choices about what they want to do. It’s not unlimited, right? Doesn’t mean they could anything. Of course,

Sarah: Yeah.

Dale Dougherty: And they’re getting feedback guidance. I did a summer camp this year a for middle school kids. They’re at about that age where things like creativity and stuff begin to almost diminish or wither, right? Because they’re not appreciated. Is the kind of thing, you might be fun of for drawing. I think the challenge in a makerspace is to create culture that is generous about these things. That’s [00:14:00] supportive. Just as if you have an athletic program, you want a program that encourages kids to try and to practice and to play.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think that’s why I do love makerspaces so much is depending on the community you’re in, they may look very different. And i love the fact that this space is now here for the community because it’s able to be this big umbrella for not only students, but for the adults who, have a lot of different interests.

Humans are not divided by vocation, purely, by an area of study, right? We’re multifaceted and so our kids, and so I think when they can find ways to work together and find those natural kind of like flow states, that’s a beautiful thing and I want them to experience that.

Yeah. ’cause we’re not all the same. Humans are by nature different. And when you highlight those differences and make be [00:15:00] in synthesis together, that’s when you know real change, real learning and real community is built.

Dale Dougherty: They succeed or fail based on the culture they create. What is great about your role is you need an instigator. If you just went to the teachers and said, we have a makerspace now, use it. It would be very awkward. If anything, first of all, why? I don’t have the time. It doesn’t interest me or it doesn’t apply. So we see that, right? We see that in makerspaces that have lots of equipment. But they don’t have a leader. Sometimes they have a person that’s been assigned to it but even they don’t have either the skills or the ability to say, this is what it can be. This is how it can be used. 

Sarah: Yeah. I think this role has been really interesting, especially coming in as an outsider into this like very longstanding, tightly knit DC education community. I [00:16:00] was only in the area for about eight months before I got this role.

So in a lot of ways I had this fresh perspective or like outside’s eyes into the community. And that made it really actually easy for me to highlight certain things that were happening already or people or individuals in the network who would be a great fit for this space.

Yeah, it’s been a really awesome thing to just be able to be that bridge to invite them into the makerspace. And then, with all my experience in previous maker spaces and art studios living in Oakland where a lot of my friends have had warehouses and creative spaces.

Just being able to really informed decisions about what to invest in, what equipment and materials. And then one of my hugest things about shared spaces like this is organization. Making sure things are organized so people instantly feel very comfortable. They can [00:17:00] see where the tools are, where materials are. It’s easy to be a responsible community member and put things back ’cause things are clearly labeled. Yeah, and I will say one of the biggest things that. I feel like has really stood out in this last 18 months as we’ve brought students and staff in, is that a lot of the staff members and teachers and adults, they really need and want a community space like this. And in a lot of ways, if they’re a person who grew up in schools without home ec spaces, auto shop, wood shop. They bit a little almost like jealous of the fact that this is now available. A comment I hear a lot is ” oh, if I had something like this growing up” or ” I would love to be here and make things as well,” or “I wanna learn how to sew.”

So I’m really trying to find like opportunities for the adults to come in and make maybe we even without the students so that. By doing things [00:18:00] themselves, then they’re more likely to bring maker centered learning into their classroom, and see what the value is for their students to have access to this space.

Dale Dougherty: It sounds like some of the kind of professional development you’re doing, in effect, is inviting adult teachers in to just do some of the things that kids would do.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s fun to plan the professional development sessions with the staff because I think we approach it really differently and, give them a chance to really have fun and get to know each other with the background of making something. It’s been really great. Recently I was able to carve some time with science teachers to introduce them to the microbit. One of them had already been engaging with it already. But yeah, it’s been exciting to bring microbit and different components, lights, LED strips, sensors into this community because [00:19:00] now these ideas are starting to spread. Like how can it be used in performing arts? How can we use them to make our like haunted hallway for the holidays? And maybe even for the winter holidays doing something that’s illuminated and interactive display.

I think the first step really is getting teachers in the door and having them have this experience. And then supporting them and feeling confident to run something like that. 

Dale Dougherty: Okay, Sarah, thank you for talking to me. Let me ask you one last question though. How was it funded as a charter school was it was it outside funding?

Sarah: There are several people and foundations that have dedicated money for our code lab and for the build lab, our woodworking space. The CEO Russ Williams is just really great at actively securing resources for this. He’s attended a lot of hearings for the city and really advocating for this kind of space being in DC. The [00:20:00] nice thing is we have taken people on hard hat tours to show them what the space can be right before it opened.

And now that it’s opened, people have come back and now are seeing how the space is functioning. And honestly the reaction is very positive and they just, it’s causing some people to be even more generous and we’re hoping to reach a point where we can even hire more staff, which is always, of course, the most challenging thing. With makerspaces, usually it’s easier to get like a one-time purchase or support for equipment, but to hire actual staff and annual budget for someone that’s more challenging.

But we feel very optimistic that this will continue to be something that, you know, even in the light of what is happening right now. The current climate i feel like it even makes more of a case for this kind of [00:21:00] learning space and community hub. Hopefully people just continue to see the value of this community space.

Dale Dougherty: Thank you, Sarah.